Rafts good and bad.

[dwilson]

I've been thinking about getting a 12 to 14 foot raft or cat to start floating in. We like overnight camping floats. Don't get into the white water stuff. One concern of mine is places in the river where there is not much room between where you need to be and where you don't want to get. I can get my canoe to go where I want it but how do rafts compare? Any other pros and cons would be good to here.

[okieboater]

Canoes are fast, easier to handle logistics, cheaper. For around AR area canoes are a great choice for general river camping and spur of the moment trips.

Rafts are slower, major logistics (set up, storage, transport, break down), way more money invested and can carry the kitchen sink and some buds as well. If you do western river multi day trips, rafts are the best choice.

I enjoy both craft. It is true you can canoe out west and raft here in the Arkansas area.

The decision is a personal one with more things to consider than noted here.

Bottom line, my opinion, any craft that gets a person out on the water is good.

dave

[Cowper]

I agree with what Dave said.

My thoughts:

I love rowing cats, but have found they are just too much trouble for most in-state, one or two day trips. It takes 5 minutes to get a canoe off the car and on the ground. A cat will take you anywhere from 45 minutes up, depending on the design of the frame, how many straps are involved, are you going to strap on a spare oar, etc. That doesn't sound like much, but it is when you realize you have to either get started towards the river 1 hour sooner than all your friends, or make them wait for an hour while you finish rigging and loading.

I wouldn't worry too much about making the raft go where you want. On easier floats, the raft is EXTREMELY forgiving - if you run into something, it is generally inconvenient, but the current has to be pretty fast before it becomes something serious like a flip.

You may hate the raft in long pools. With the right company and the right attitude about time (like NOT being in a hurry to get anywhere), rafts are fun even in pools. But if you're travelling with others who are camping in canoes, you may wear yourself out trying to keep up. TIP: Offer to carry their beer or soft drinks, since you have the "big raft". (They won't leave you too far behind.)

I recommend you rent or borrow a small raft before investing in one. No amount of reading is going to give you that personal chance to decide if you really like it or not, and you don't want to spend that much money until you are sure.

I hate paddling a raft through pools, but I don't mind rowing one through a pool at all. This is just a personal point of view, others will not agree. But if you get a raft, and like rowing, then that becomes like the Cat - your time to rig it out and get ready to go downriver goes up when you add a rowing frame, as compared to a raft that only requires you to inflate it and jump in and go.

[dwilson]

We spend most of our time on the Buffalo. I was looking at a frame with oars setup. Most likely it will be just me in it. My wife likes her kayak tooooo much. I have been around rafts on days when the wind is in your face on long pools. Those folks didn't seem to be having a good time. That was one of my concerns and was why I was thinking oars. I didn,t know they were that much slower. I probaly won't like that. Thanks for your input.

[Jim Krueger]

I too have been interested in rafts for a long time now. I have always been a kayaker, but several times I would have liked to carry more gear on a given trip, but much more often I've floated streams like the Upper Little Missouri, Cadron, Mulberry, and Big Piney when they were really up and running more than I was looking forward to enyoying, and being more comfortable with, on a particular day with my WW kayak skills. Times like these made me wish I had a 12-14 foot raft set up with oars. On several occassions when I was floating some of these streams, at a more moderate level, I noticed fellow paddlers in 12ft. 'oar rigs' had no problem keeping up with all of the kayaks and canoes.
I still think I'd like a raft some day, but I've certainly have been around them enough now to also have a better understanding of the added time and logistics mentioned that they require.

Best Regards
Jim

[Clif]

I started with a paddle raft. One great factor with it was no frame but still could oar. Had some oarlocks on the tubes.

With no frame, it was extremely easy to get to the water and off. Could shuttle in the trunk of our honda accord at the time. Factor in tying on top time for hard boats. I could have it blown up by the time others got our other gear from the car to the shore, Could easily carry 4 folks in it along with ice chest and a drybag or 2. No canoe will do that. Did Cadron, Illinois Bayou, Piney

On good current the slow factor is there but not much of an issue. On the slow current windy days.... you are right. Getting a jump start on breaks helps a lot.

Raft frame is back to tuff to carry, and the time others mentioned. But oars are way easy to hit those narrow spots after getting used to them. A little compensating for your width. Your boat full or all your gear is not much issue with oars weight wise. My kids like me to row while they play?? Yet the 14 year old can easily keep it where it needs to be on the Buffy or Remmel/Ouachita float.

[Deuce]

The guys have pretty well covered the general pros and cons, so I'll just convey my personal experience. It'll get kinda rambly, but bear with me. I have a fourteen foot bucket boat that I use for multi-days around here (Buffalo, Current, et al). I bought it sight unseen from an outfitter in Oregon for $400 and it holds air really really well, even better than I expected honestly. I bought fittings, straps, oars, towers, locks and rights, cooler mount, and gear floor from Frontier Play. Darren Smith (the owner) is a great guy and will gladly answer any questions you have. He also gives ten percent off anything from NRS, so if you put together a good sized order he can save you a few bucks. I picked up a drop bag from someone else out there (can't remember who). I bought pipe from Home Depot and slapped together my own frame. I didn't keep track very well, but I'm probably into the whole setup for $1200 or so. If I ever wanted to do a big water trip (which I'm nowhere near ready for) I'd probably need to upgrade the rubber and maybe replace the frame pipes with something a little heavier duty (currently made of EMT), but otherwise what I have would work anywhere.

I put the gear floor up front and pile loose stuff, dry bags, etc. up there and throw a table over it. Behind that is a 120 quart cooler, which is the passenger seat. Next is an open slot for the rower's tootsies, and behind that is a dry box (heavy duty structural foam thing from Home Depot) where the rower sits. Behind that is another dry box that fits in the drop bag, and it's a double rail frame, so I can strap oddball stuff like propane bottles over the tubes. There's stuff everywhere, but I like it because we can run around all over it and carry enough gear (including split firewood from home) for a battalion. If it sounds like something that takes a long time to set up for a trip, well, it is, and it looks like the Clampett truck on water. Al Donaldson had many chuckles watching us put it together one day. It's worth it to me; may or may not be to you. There are a million ways to rig one out, and that's a big part of the fun to me. The Gear Pig does have her own trailer which makes things a little easier.

I have paddled it a few times, always with only one other person aboard. We ran it down the Spring on a high water day summer before last. I sat back center with a long paddle and my buddy sat on the end of the front thwart. We had no issues putting it wherever we wanted, and I am definitely not an ace raft pilot. I do think the fact that it's a bucket boat mitigates the wind concern to an extent. It cuts down on maneuverability of course, but I don't really care about that so much around here.

As I mentioned before, rambly, but I said all that because I think your use for a raft would be similar to mine. Right now on NRS gear swap there are two really nice looking Achilles bucket boats for six bills each negotiable. It's an outfitter, so shipping shouldn't be an issue (probably cost you another c note or so). If it wouldn't get me in MAJOR trouble at the Coop house I'd buy one. If you're on the fence about ponying up for a raft setup I'd urge you to consider one of those (if still available). You're also welcome to try out the Pig some time if you're so inclined.

[Eric Esche]

I am an old school rafter. I did it for 14 years in bucket rafts, although they were commercial rafts, up to $3000 each, back in the 70's and 80's for over 2000 trips on the Chattooga and the Gauley and New, out west on the Salmon. While the majority of my trips were in paddle rafts, I got to row in W.VA, Idaho, and on the Colorado. I owned 2 16' bucket rafts that I took friends down the Chattooga in for 10 years.

Owning a paddle raft means having to schedule your trips around those of your friends and training a crew you can rely on to be there when the water is. I was lucky in that I always had folks who wanted to paddle with me, and our rivers back east ran more reliably, and the Chattooga was only 7 miles away. If you have a paddle raft, assume you will need to provide everything and do everything, and then you will be suprised and pleased when your friends remember to help deflate the raft and load all the gear.

With a row rig, Cowper has it right. Allow an hour before and after everyone to rig and derig if you do it right and have all the bells and whistles and you know what you are doing. Beginners usually need more time still. If you leave home at the same time, you will be behind and probably out of sight all day. If they get off the river at the same time and go to eat, plan on their being finished just as you get there. Having a raft trailer is "said" to be easier on the raft and does speed things, but I have seen rafts get torn up several times in places with a tight shuttle road or improper tie down.

110Volt inverter for your vehicle so you can use an old vacuum to blow up and deflate your raft is wonderful and really does save time and muscle power, but you do still need to have a manual pump with you at all times to top it off and you need to keep a patch kit as well. No matter how good or expensive your raft is, if it is inflated, it can be deflated. I was in charge of repairing and maintaining a commercial raft fleet for a few years and you would be suprised at some of the stupid things that can pop a raft.

Chafe strips, both the top and bottom varieties add weight and dollars to a raft. They also add lifetime in most cases. I insisted on them on my rafts.

Going in partners on a raft really makes sense IF you have a partner who is willing to take the same care of it that you do, that is likely to raft with you, or really take turns. Throwing in repair/replacement money for every trip made is a good idea if you use it a lot. or yearly if you do not go that often. Be warned that rafts can die of old age even if not used as they are constructed of polymer coated textile fabrics. Both the coatings and the fabrics "age" from UV exposure, extreme temperatures, abrasion, repeated flexing, improper storage, etc. Proper storage can help them last longer, but even stored up high and dry in a bag on a pallet on a concrete floor in a sealed building under cover, mice or insects like like carpenter ants can still destroy a raft. I lost 2 rafts this way in a supposedly secure and sealed outdoor metal building.

Given the advances in rafts, If I ever buy one again, I think I would go with a self bailing raft 13'6'' to 15' and go with a row rig for the "freedom". That said, I really prefer being in a paddle raft and have kept my raft paddles for that very reason. I like crewing with other folks, but it is not for everyone.

Yes, winds affect you more than other craft. Flat water/no current areas are still flat with no current. Murphy's law still says the wind is never at your back.

If you love being able to carry just about anything and the freedom to stand up and move around, you will love a raft.

Rafts are in no way invinciple. You can get in trouble with them just like ny other watercraft. Bigger they are, the harder they fall when they do fall/fail.

If you ever get me to look at a raft with you, I will warn you of my biases. I like bigger rafts with larger tubes than most folks. I like BIG 19-20" tubes, no less than 13'6"' long and prefer 15' to 16'Rafts. My favorites were an old Campways Miwok or Rubber fabricators model for the Chattooga. I been in paddle rafts to 22' and rowed 18' rafts like an old Avon. That brings up another BAD. Commercial rafts weight a lot. Older you get, harder it is to hoss around a 150-200 pound raft on land, making a team sport or NEEDING a group effort of friends at put ins and take outs. Raft trailers can help in some spots with drive in launch spots, but the usual is having to lift it in and out without a winch. Smaller and lighter rafts do have their advantages. I know that I keep getting told that these larger rafts have no place on Arkansas rivers, but I have a lot of experience in them in tight channels and slots.

While you can make row frames out of iron and wood, If I had to make one again, I'd find a talented Muffler shop and see what I could get made out of thin wall stainless. Smooth bends, custom lashing bars, walk boards, and custom spacing for your rig are so nice.

You can patch up an older commercial raft, but it USUALLY takes skill and knowledge, and many are just not worth patching. BE very careful what you buy and have a commercial shop which has the proper equipment do any repairs like a blown seam or bladder. It is a bigger job than you think it is, the reason many of these old raftS get sold and not repaired. Most folks who buy a used raft only use it once or twice a year for 5 years before they sell it or it dies. Rafts "age" whether you use them or store them, and it is really better to use them. IF you deflate your raft every time, do not suck it to hard vacuum. I know this lets you roll it smaller into a jelly roll, but this is harder on the raft, as the material is pulled and kept in sharper bends. IT was designed to be blown up, not vacuumed empty. What ever you can squeeze out by lying on it is enough.

Got a lot more, but will tell you on the river sometime.

Eric Esche

[dwilson]

Well looks like the raft topic needs a campfire with a large stock pile of wood and a blow log. I knew Eric would jump in there as soon as he woke up. Richard will probaly start throwing rocks at me now. I am now the owner of a bucket boat with one seater frame and two sets of oars. It's a Avon 12 footer. Paid $300.00 for it and it holds air. This topic doesn't have to stop with [well he got it thats that]. I'd like to hear more so I don't have to learn the hard way. Maybe the rafters can do a float together. That would be cool. Thanks for all the knowledge guys.

[Richard]

I am gathering rocks as I type.

[Deuce]

I am gathering rocks as I type.

Just remember, rocks bounce off rubber.

[Richard]

Oooops! Didn't think of that

[dwilson]

Richard you wild man how's things. Was your tent still upright when you got back? For a retired person with no watch you sure cut a trail early that next morning. That evening I got to talk with Mr. Smith some more. Funny thing happened while we talked. He fell asleep while telling me a tell. He needed a nap in a bad way. Thanks again for setting that up for us. Hope to help again.

[Richard]

Danny, It was great to see you and Tammy. I left early to see if I could see the elk. I did :)
My tent is in need of some repair. That is what I get for not guying it out.

Ken has done that with me as well.

[Tim Eubanks]

First of all, Dave! it is good to have you back on the board and on your feet. Can't wait to hear the whole story.

Danny
I have a 12' Puma that I have rowed on the Buffalo several times and now have a 14' NRS raft that I can't wait to take down the lower when the water is up. One of the biggest advantages I see is that your friends who may not be able to or capable of paddling a canoe can climb on your raft and enjoy the river. We recently put my raft on the White River with another couple and floated from Cotter down to Rim Shoals. My buddy and I fished off the ends while his wife, who had never been on a raft, kept us in the middle and off the few shoals. So much more comfortable than any john boat I've ever been in. Yeah, inflating and rigging, deflating and de-rigging can be a bit of a pain, but as long as it is not raining and you have save some beer, it is not a deal killer. And they will carry a huge quantity of gear without sacrificing stability, unlike a canoe or john boat.

After your rowing skills improve, you will be amazed at where that raft will go. Rowing the pools just gives you some excercise and more time to enjoy being out. If the Buffalo is your main river, then I would highly recommend getting counter-balanced oars or making your own counter balances. I'd never rowed with them until my new raft came with a set. So much less effort. No way my buddy's wife could have taken over that day with "regular" oars.