Villain S First Impressions

[Cowper]

Looks - The boat looks good, a classic creek boat design with just a hint of edge. The edges look even softer than what you perceive from the website photos.

Surfing /Play – generally seemed to be more controllable in surfs than most creek boats I have paddled. It of course did not spin as easily as a six foot play boat with a planing hull, but for a creek boat, it was good, very good. It felt stable in the side surfs, and to me seemed to have a bit less “bobbing” that one gets from even rounder designs.

Holding a line – when I wanted to go across the river, the boat held a line well.

Taking care of #1 – Seems to be one of this boat’s strongest points. When we got to the falls, there was a comedy of errors that ended with 3 swimmers, at least two loose boats and 1 loose paddle. Out of our group of 6, two made it to a safe position on shore, while me and the Villain S remained the “last man standing” as I gave chase to swimmers and boats alike. It wasn’t my plan to charge into the Falls at a high level without studying lines at least a little bit, but when that was what I needed to do, the Villain S helped me keep the powder dry.

Rolling – Duh. Never “had” to, but tried one when I was overheating. Popped up in the blink of an eye. “Performs as advertised.”

Comparisons to other boats – I don’t have recent experience in most of the other currently popular creek boats, but it has been said that this boat borrows features from the Hero, the Rockers, and even competitor’s current models. So I was expecting something maybe half-way between a Hero and a Rocker. Each boat has a couple of things I like, and a couple of things I don’t like, so a “combo” had the potential to be either very good or very bad. After my trial run, I’m saying “very good”. I see this boat as being a pure creeker, an improved “tweak” of the Rocker, and much closer to that than to a Hero. But it is a good tweak; the complete lack of edges is something that kept me from buying another Rocker (and just using my old Salto instead). While the “tug” of edges for performance was drawing me towards the Pyranha line, I was sold on the value of Jackson’s bulkhead design for reducing injury potential.

Weight – I don’t have a value in pounds yet (and yes, that’s killin’ me), but my overall impression is that it is not significantly different than any other currently available creek boat.

Size – The most commonly heard comment was, “That’s the small?!?” Yes, the “small” Villain is the right size boat for me (currently 170#, planning to go back to <165# in the near future). Foot room was adequate; about what I would expect for a creek boat. A slightly larger person could also choose this boat; but this is going to be influenced largely by your personal preferences – do you like a “big” boat for the extra stability, or prefer a slightly smaller boat for the improved throw weight and reduced surface area that the river can use to push you around?

If I could change one thing – it would be to find a new “super plastic”. To me the Jackson cross link seems just a hair softer than some of the competitors. But I also participated in a duct tape repair of a Pyranha boat just yesterday (other factors being equal, greater hardness means greater potential for cracks, and also saw some pretty deep gouges in a Liquid Logic boat making its first trip. I like the blow-molded plastics, but those currently using this technology are not producing a hull that is near the top of my list of “maybes”, and don’t currently have a local dealer to support me after the sale like OOO, who has insisted on good customer support no matter who they obtained the hull from.

Bottom Line – I don’t want to add to the over-hyping that every new boat gets, so at the risk of sounding boring, I’ll say it this way: I think I’m going to quit worrying about this design or that design, several are very good and none are perfect. I like this design, and it is clearly an improvement on what I’m currently paddling. Instead, I going to start thinking about the color options I have…

[okieboater]

"I like this design, and it is clearly an improvement on what I’m currently paddling. Instead, I going to start thinking about the color options I have…"

Cowper, what are you currently paddling?

That information would tell me a lot.

I have a Mega Rocker and Super Hero and am happy with both of them.

Just wondering if I need to start saving for a big Villain.

[DMG]

Thanks for the review. I'm thinking of getting my first creek boat and the Villain was on my list of possibilities, but I hadn't seen many reviews by people who didn't sell Villains for a living. Right now, I'm leaning towards a Nomad 8.1 from Dagger. I can't really say why other than it fits me and it has an intangible "ol' work horse" quality to it that I like. Nothing about it looks extreme. It doesn't have the extreme bow rocker of a Jefe or the extreme banana-ness of a Rocker. I looked at the Villain at the Pack Rat and I can say the same about it. It appears to have a big but sensibly-proportioned hull. The edges looked sensible, too, but I'm glad to hear what you thought of them. You may have also steered me away from another option which was an '07 demo Rocker that I found at a very good price. Might still go that way, but just looking at it, it seemed like the hull could use just a bit more definition. Anyway, I appreciate your effort to post the review. Maybe I'll give the Villain a closer look. Thanks!

~Dave

[okieboater]

DMG,

here is my 2 cents worth. I have a Mega Rocker and a Super Hero.

Been thru a ton of kayaks in my time. For creeking my mega rocker is the most forgiving creek boat I have ever had. I have been in a number of creek conditions where the Mega Rocker made me look really good even tho I screwed up big time myself on a specific line. Having said that, I wanted more surf time and got a Super Hero. For most river running the Super Hero is a very nice boat for me. Carves turns like it is on rails, holds the line, surfs great and is pretty forgiving as well.

My feedback is if you want a full on creeker, go with the Rocker. If you want a decent creeker but a lot more fun surfing etc go for the Hero. The Rocker is designed to spin on a dime and it does, on the flats tho you really have to pay attention or the veer will have you working more than you want to. Hero tracks a lot easier.

I have not had a chance to demo a Villian. Might head over to NOC this summer and at least check one out. everything I have read so far indicates that the Villian has the best parts of the Rocker and Hero designs. So, the Villian might be the one boat design I have been looking for all these years. Will not know till I get to have some river time in a Villian.

I have seen a ton of good feedback on the Nomads as well. Probably cannot go wrong with either design.

So many boats, so little time..........

[DMG]

Thanks, Dave! I've paddled a hero briefly and liked it. I could probably run anything I would ever run in a Hero and be just fine. I'm interested in a displacement hull mainly just to experience something different. Your advice on the Rocker is well taken, too. I hear the word forgiving and my ears perk up! I need to see it, but I think I've found one for a pretty good price. I don't suppose it matters that much. Maybe I'll do like Cowper and find something in a color I like!

By the way, I could hear you and Vernon hollering at me last Sunday on the Frog every time I crossed a strong eddy line or one of those nasty diagonal seams. I strained a muscle in my side doing one of Vernon's head dinks but it worked just as advertised. It was pretty juicy but I somehow stayed in my Rev with only one roll. My forearms ached for two days afterwards so I must have had a death grip on my paddle. It was pretty awesome!

~Dave

[okieboater]

Way to go Dave!!!!!

We gave you guys a ton of tips on "How to ........" at Canoe School.

But did not really have the good CFS at Canoe School to let you experience how the theory works.

Thanks for working with us at Canoe School and giving us feedback from your Frog trip.

Keep on "Boatin on the Edge"

[Cowper]

Current Creekboat: Weird but True: Eskimo Salto. How I got there:

My current boat is a regression back to the eskimo Salto I paddled 3 creekboats ago. How'd that happen? Got a Riot Sniper; liked it, but it was a bit short, maybe a hair small for me, leaky hatch. Then got a first generation Rocker; boat was "OK", but just didn't excite me. Too round, poor for playing, "mushes" into eddies; and on the first generation I think they maybe didn't make the hulls quite thick enough. They get the job done and are light, but I felt the flex of every rock I contacted. So I decided to split my creek time between the Sniper and the Salto, and sell the Rocker because it was the newest and therefore most valuable on the used market. Somewhere in this musical chair boat shuffling the bow of my Sniper got a 6" crack while on loan to a friend, leaving the Salto as my one and only creek boat.

I've never paddled a Nomad that was the one for my weight range; I've briefly paddled a Jefe. My take is that both are solid creek boats, and the Jefe has been high on my list of "possibles" for about a year now.

[okieboater]

Hard to beat that good German plastic!

I have read a lot of good things about the new Prijon Pure creeker.

Jefe has been high on my list of "do I really need another kayak?". I also have heard good things about the Nomad.

Fortunately, I got one of the Rockers that was cooked correctly. No problems with the plastic so far even on rocky low water runs.

I agree with you on the Rocker not being much of a play boat.

The Hero tho,for me, surfs well which is about all the "play" I do these days. A lot more "play" but still a "creeker" when needed. It also does well carving eddy turns.

[Mike_P]

My understanding from what I've read & talking to folks who know more about boat design that I do is that one of the most important differences between the Villian and the Hero/SuperHero was improved hull speed. For what I paddle I don't notice my SuperHero as being "slow" but I can see why people would be concerned about that (shorter boat with planing hull). The LL Remix is touted for it's speed. The Villian series is certainly longer than the Hero series. How important is hull speed when creeking?Thoughts?

[Jeremy M]

I would think Hull Speed would be very important when creeking. Typically when "river running" the body of water is wider and the time to set up for a move is lengthened. A slower boat, then, has plenty of time to get up to speed before the move. Remember that when you're going faster than the current is when you have the greatest control. When creeking, on a narrower/tighter body of water, the time to move ratio is significantly small, meaning you might want a boat that gets up to speed more quickly, giving you the edge.

Scenario you ask? Sure! Take a situation where you're eddied out above a drop on river left, but your boof is on river right. Maybe 50 feet from your position...You need immediate hull speed to make the ferry and stay in position to hit the boof. Or you could use the transitive property....

Assuming Speed = Fun; and also Boof = Fun; Speed = Boof! (or something like that)

[okieboater]

I agree with Jeremy!

Also the faster you can get up to your boat's hull speed the better.

Seems like I have heard rules of thumb that you should be able to get your boat up to hull speed in 3 to 5 paddle strokes. And, seems to me that doing it in 3 stokes is a lot better than 5.

[Mike_P]

Dave do you feel your SuperHero is a lot slower than your MegaRocker? Would you describe the Rocker as fast & the Hero as slow? Just curioius.

[okieboater]

Mega Rocker may be (except for my squirt boat) the slowest or one of the slowest kayaks I have ever paddled on flat water. You must pay attention to body position to keep it going reasonably straight. It makes up for it tho in gnarly creek runs with rocks every where and nasty drops. It just cruises over, around or through stuff that other kayaks I have owned would have given me trouble. Very forgiving kayak, but fast on the flats it is not.

Super Hero comes in on the flats either average or maybe a bit faster than the short new school kayaks I have paddled IE I had a Dagger Juice for a while - Super Hero probably a bit faster than the Juice on the flats. Super Hero for sure much faster on the flats than the Mega Rocker. Altho I have had the Super Hero on some nice runs like lower Yoch and it has felt good and stable, the Mega Rocker is my boat of choice for low water rocky runs IE made several runs late last year on the ARK ie Browns etc at maybe 400 cfs and the Mega Rocker just made it easy whereas I have the feeling the Super Hero would have been a little less forgiving.

Mega Rocker = slow on the flats, much more forgiving for me in the low cfs creeky gnar as I am a old school displacement hull boater and like the secondary stability.

Super Hero = faster on the flats than the Mega Rocker. Not as much secondary stability to me as the Mega Rocker but Super Hero carves a turn like it is on rails and lots of primary stability. It gets you where you want to go in a hurry.

If memory correct I read in Boater Talk from one of the Team JK hot dogs that if he were setting in a eddy behind a rock above a class 5 drop and there was a must make ferry move across the face of the drop to hit the safe line he would think the following. If he wanted to make the ferry move for sure he would want to be in the Hero, but if he was unsure about making the move and felt he would have to run the sh*t he would want to be in the Rocker. This was before the Villian came out.

I am looking forward to a real in water test of the Villian just to see if it really is the best of both designs.

If I am river running looking to surf and hit eddies just having fun cruising - my RPM Max is still the kayak of choice and runs circles around either the Mega Rocker or Super Hero on the flats. Ladies and Gents, keep those old RPM and RPM Maxes. Not worth much money on the used market but still lots of fun use on most of the area runs.

[Fish]

In my experience, top speed of the hull is not all that important creeking. It's not that often you're wanting to paddle fast and straight on a steep creek, especially those around here. Hull speed does help on a boof in theory, but so does having a shorter boat (which inevitably makes the hull slower). So that's pretty much a wash. My recommendation is to not buy a creek boat for hull speed - shop for maneuverability and stability. Also look for enough bow volume to surface quickly at the bottom of drops. And definitely get something your feet aren't twisted or pointed in. Otherwise, twisted and broken ankles are a real possibility.

How quick you can come up to speed is a different story. In my experience, just about all of the creekboat designs out there are at full speed after about 3 good strokes. So I'm not sure that's much of a differentiating factor. But if you feel you can get up to top speed more quickly, that's certainly worth having in a creek boat. On a creek, the eddies are small and drops are closely spaced!

I've been a big fan of the Huck for AR creekin, and I've only paddled two boats that I've thought I might like better. The Eskimo Salto seems to work for me about as well as the Huck, and, more recently, I've paddled a Dagger Nomad a few times and the secondary stability impresses the heck out of me. It may be a bit less maneuverable than my Huck, but a bit faster hull too, and it gets up to speed really quickly coming out of an eddy. I think the Nomad may be my next boat when I retire my Huck. Haven't tried a Villian S yet, but I will say I think they should have named it the Villian-L, just to be poetic...

- Fish

[okieboater]

I two have read a lot of good things about the Nomad Creeker. Very popular with the Colorado Front Range big dogs.